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  • /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

    The lobby, the championships, the point system... You have a question? A suggestion? You want to organize something? come and talk here!

    Re: /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

    Postby .com » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:17 pm

    Dear CbbK,
    I don't believe that anyone is doubting the fairness of the system. I think what they are getting at is that in championship deathmatches where a start may be an advantage, if you are the unlucky person to not start 5 or more times in a row, it can be quite the morale crusher. In order to keep championship players at their best, it is important to keep them feeling like they win/lose because of skill and a little bit of luck, and not just luck. I suggest a limit to 3 starts for games with deathmatches, then it should automatically switch, regardless of the odds.
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    Re: /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

    Postby Jack Daniels » Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:43 am

    After some further thought, I can see one reason why CbbK does not like that first player would be Predictable (alternates)...one reason alone: Because if you know you will or won't be going first, that can easily effect what cards you pick. During certain combinations of Card Level & Rules, I would definitely select different cards for a different strategy, if I was going first, than if I wasn't. If CbbK does not want that to be a factor...then I understand why to NOT alternate First Play, and to let it be "random"

    However, that issues does NOT occur during a Deathmatch, since the cards are fixed after the draws. We do not select cards after a DeathMatch draw.

    Therefore, I will BEG that First Play alternate back-and-forth between players during DEATHMATCH DRAWS. Unless someone can actually post a credible reason not to, I really don't understand why we wouldn't do that....ESPECIALLY in championships.

    As both reaqk and myself both stated, we understand that the random First Play thing works perfectly fine in the long run, statistically, in theory by the numbers. But, as we have both pointed out, Championship games are not a long term affair. You may only play 5 games against a player, and if one player goes first 5 times in a row....that can be extremely unfair (for one of the players!) depending on the card levels, rules, and of course your opponents skill level ;)

    Here are items to consider

    1) Championships: All games alternate First Play (both DeathMatch Draws, and Continued games)
    2) Championships: Only DeathMatch Draws alternate First Play
    3) Regular Games: All games alternate First Play (both DeathMatch Draws, and Continued games)
    4) Regular Games: Only DeathMatch Draws alternate First Play

    Ideally, I would like to see #1 and #4. That is...all Champ games alternate, and only DeathMatch Draws alternate in regular non-champ games.

    But I will certainly settle for #2 at a MINIMUM, PLEASE!!! Altho it would make sense to implement that for both Champ and non-Champ games...that is to do #2 and #4.

    Further thoughts...?
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    Re: /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

    Postby CbbK » Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:25 pm

    I understand that it can be very frustrating when, for 4 or 5 games in a row the game decides that your opponent starts first. I'm thinking about setting a random limit to this, each turn the game picks a number X between 1 and Y, if the same player started more than X times then it's the other player's time to start.
    For example :
    Player red starts, red=1
    Game picks a number, X=2, red <= X so red starts
    2nd game, player red starts, red=2
    Game picks a number, X=3, red<=X so red starts
    3rd game, player red starts, red=3
    Game picks a number, X=1, red > X so blue starts

    The purpose of this is to avoid long series with the same result, while keeping it really random.
    Why do I like to keep it really random? Because of that feeling when you see the indicator turning at the beginning, with that sound, and you don't know where it'll stop ;)
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    Re: /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

    Postby MukuroY » Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:55 pm

    Bumping this topic because this problem happens again in the current championship.

    Start in a Loser Winner game with the current championship rules/lvl is a clear disadvantage. Most games when it happens you can win only if your oponnent have a bad deck or do a wrong move. And I saw how some players was disqualified because get a bad luck with have the start move in all games or most them. In some moments, even you get a draw playing first you will lose vpts because the gap with your opponent vpts. And smart players will leave the game after get 3 or 4 games where his opponent started playing.

    So I think at least to championship games we need a change in this system. Sir CbbK, I don't know if you already does some changes in it, but it yet happens. Please, think about it!

    Ah, I'm not doubting the fairness of the system. It's awesome in regular games. But it can be frustrating in a championship. And I understand what Jack said about alternates who play first can't be a solution if its not a deathmatch game. And yes, I like too that feeling when you see the indicator turning at the beginning so I think we need just a more restricted limit to it without a total alternate between the players.
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    Re: /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

    Postby Jack Daniels » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:50 pm

    in championships it can be....too much. like you said, this current championship is a perfect case where going first is definitely BAD. and if you get it 5 times in a row, its just...devastating ~____~;
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    Re: /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

    Postby Saintsy » Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:29 am

    I could've sworn i made a massive post in here round 1..

    Anyway, i think having alternating starts in future loser winner champs should be a must. Like Muk said, those that play first (This ruleset/level) won't win, but it's entirely possible to get the draw.

    The previous championships i didnt mind starting first as it all came down to the last couple cards anyway lol, but with LW there's the major luck factor. I've seen some people play second 5-6-7 games in a row which is enough (if they win) to progress through.

    There's alot of "Newer" players in the champ still thanks to this. Not saying they've got no skill, but the fact they've been lucky the whole champ has 80% to do with it.
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    Re: /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

    Postby Jack Daniels » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:50 am

    Alternate "First Turn" back and forth, in all championships, is my original stance, as shown in my thread here...

    and I still feel it is 100% the MOST FAIR. It literally cannot be more fair!!!!!!
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    Re: /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

    Postby Saintsy » Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:04 am

    This really REALLY needs to happen!

    I screwed myself over completly this champ because of the MAJOR luck factor in this champ! Though i played 3 shockingly bad games to start which may have something to do with that :P
    Finals round, nobody should have to start 7-8 games out of 12, what a joke!
    I guess it's my fault for actually playing more than 2 games against someone in the finals rather than sticking to my gut and just play people once..

    Ohwell, was a fun champ none the less, now i know how it felt to be Ultima a little bit haha! Wonder if i can "Rise" like he did xD
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    Re: /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

    Postby Jack Daniels » Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:24 am

    dude...the final just started. its far from over :shock:

    don't count yourself out, at all :shock:
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    Re: /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

    Postby Saintsy » Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:59 am

    Im at 36 LOL!
    I'll need to catch a leprechaun to get back to 100 lol!
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