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  • /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

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    /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

    Postby Jack Daniels » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:47 am

    CbbK:
    This issue has been a huge annoyance since I joined this game almost a year ago, and I am finally bringing it up, because it just seems crazy that is still persists. It is in regards to which player plays their card FIRST at the start of each game. Its a problem, and we need a change. Here it is:

    THE ISSUE
    When playing a string of continuous games against a player, very VERY often, the First Play (which player plays their card first) tends to repeat many games in a row. I have seen many times a string of games occur where one player will play first 5, 6, 7, or even 8 times IN A ROW. Here are the odds of that happening:

    1 - 50% chance
    2 - 25% chance
    3 - 12.5% chance
    4 - 6.25% chance
    5 - 3.13% chance
    6 - 1.56% chance
    7 - 0.78% chance
    8 - 0.39% chance

    To have one player play first 5 games in a row has a 3.13% chance of occuring...but in reality, for some strange reason, it happens QUITE OFTEN!!! 7 games in a row I saw the last time I was around playing for a while. That has a 0.78% chance of happening. Not 7.8....not 78...0.78% lol. 1/128. I'm sorry, but there is clearly something wrong with how the game "randomly" selects which player goes first. After witnessing many strings of games over the past year, I truly believe there is something wrong with the random generation of which player plays first, as it certainly tends to repeat First Play more often than not, and has a tendency to continue the First Play until the Win/Loss switches players...its very strange. Something is wrong.

    THE PROBLEM
    Why is this a problem? Because based on the game rules & card levels, there can be a clear advantage or disadvantage to being the First Play of the game. This is especially critical for Championships. A faulty-random-generation of First Play, which tends to repeat the same First Play more often than not for large strings of games, can have extremely positive or negative effects on championship games / results, depending on the rules & card levels. This can and DOES really lead to games being "unfair" in my opinion. Its been annoying me for so long now, I am finally saying something. I have the perfect solution, however...

    THE SOLUTION
    The solution is quite simple, and wonderful:

    The computer shall randomly pick which player plays first (First Play) only in the 1st game of a string of continuous games - after the first game, the First Play shall alternate back & forth between players.

    Can it be any more FAIR? Can it possibly be any better? I don't think so. First Play alternating back and forth between players is absolutely perfect. I actually can't believe something like this hasn't been implemented into the game already. I see absolutely no reason why it shouldn't be like this.

    It would be completely fair that way, which is what I want to see.

    Please, please consider this for the next update...not just for championships, but for all games (but yes, especially for Championships lol) :)
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    Re: /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

    Postby Jack Daniels » Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:03 am

    Jack Daniels wrote:THE SOLUTION
    The computer shall randomly pick which player plays first (First Play) only in the 1st game of a string of continuous games - after the first game, the First Play shall alternate back & forth between players.


    Oh and this would apply to both types of game continuations:
    1. Deathmatch Draw continuation
    2. Game over, but both players "Continue" to play more games (Exit/Continue ?)

    Ideally, the alternating of First Play would occur in both cases. If, for some reason, that is not possible to code in...then at a minimum, it should certainly alternate First Play with DeathMatch Draws. That one is absolutely critical imo, to be fair...
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    Re: /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

    Postby CbbK » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:23 am

    Hi JackDaniels,

    This is indeed annoying because from the very beginning of TTFO the ratio of "player red starts" against "player blue starts" is exaclty of 1.00318, which praticly means equality, all games included (deathmatch, continue, ..).
    I'll try to find one of the spree you're talking about and investigate more about this.
    About your idea, yes, it's a viable solution I agree.
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    Re: /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

    Postby Jack Daniels » Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:41 pm

    1.00318, huh? looks pretty good lol.

    Of course that could have 1 player go first 5 times in a row, and then the other player go first 5 times in a row. Ratio? 1.0, perfect! ....Not! Too many games in a row, of one player being First Play. It is super annoying and not fair, especially in Championships.

    To be honest, the Alternate First Play concept literally seems to be as fair as it can be. How could get it be any more fair? It coulnd't lol. Its the perfect fairness possible.

    In the last championship, for example, it was Loser Winner rules, with Same-Combo+ and level 7 cards. If you played in this championship, you would know that being First Play was a big disadvantage (because you were also Last Play, which was bad!). When you were First Play, you begged and fought for a Draw, while if you were not First Play, you really needed to try to get that win! Anyway, those of us in that championship are all very aware of the advantages of NOT being First Play. But, the game would do so many repeats! reaqk had a string of games were he was First Play 7 games in a row!!! And this was NOT deathmatch. This is completely unfair, and not acceptable for a championship, imo.

    And the fix is so simple....1st game, computer picks. Thereafter, First Play alternates between players. This has gotta be implemented for Deathmatch Draws, at a minimum!!!! It literally couldn't be any more fair! Would love to see it in all types of game continuations. I just want fairness brought to this issue, and the solution seems so simple, to be as fair as possible; alternation
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    Re: /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

    Postby SpenceKwon » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:21 am

    On occasions i have seen one player play first many times in a row but tbh making it turn based is not the solution.
    For what its worth something that effects the "chance" aspect of the game should not be played with.
    You gotta chop that on the chin
    I vote to leave alone :)
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    Re: /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

    Postby Jack Daniels » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:38 pm

    reaqk said in the last tournament he played a string of games against lolipop, I believe...where reakq was FIrst Play 12 times in a row :shock:

    Mind you, this was during the Loser Winner rules championship, where it was certainly a BAD thing to be first! So this is the kind of chance you want to see in a CHAMPIONSHIP?? I think not. Too ridiculous.
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    Re: /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

    Postby Jack Daniels » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:11 am

    bump for more discussion :3

    edit: topic also brought up here:
    http://www.tripletriadflashonline.com/e ... ?f=5&t=523

    Jack Daniels wrote:A few comments.
    Regarding reakq's extremely important comment....I agree so hard with him, its not even funny. I am adamant about how SOMETHING NEEDS TO CHANGE regarding the "random" flip of who goes first. CbbK: I'm sorry, but I don't care about the stats lol. sure, that shows that the random system works in the long term...but unfortunately, individual championships are NOT a long term affair.

    Lets say you are in the final round of a championship, battling it out for first place...giving a particular card & rule set, being first can DEFINITELY be either a large disadvantage or advantage. Now you are battling it out in the final round, and one player happens to go first 4 or 5 times in a row....SO. FREAKING. ANNOYING....and not fair! I would propose several options:

    1. In all cases: 1st game random, each continued game after alternating who goes first
    2. In DEATHMATCH games only: 1st game random, each deathmatch draw game after alternating who goes first
    3. In CHAMPIONSHIPS only: 1st game random, each continued game after alternating who goes first
    4. In CHAMPIONSHIPS with DEATHMATCH only: 1st game random, each deathmatch draw game after alternating who goes first

    Personally, I don't see why option 1 isn't selected. Literally NOTHING IS MORE FAIR THAN ALTERNATING WHO GOES FIRST. Try to name a more fair approach...and...well...you can't, because it is by definition the most fair lol. However if for some reason CbbK is against that, then I will BEG that at a bare minimum during DEATHMATCH games, the Deathmatch draws SHOULD alternate who goes first. I honestly cannot understand why someone would be against that for these deathmatch draw games...the goal is to try to keep it as fair as possible.

    Options 3 and 4 are the same as 1 and 2, except applying only to Championship games, where I feel this is absolutely critical. Option 4 should be implemented at a bare minimum, for the reasons reaqk already had concerns about. We've all been there...and it sucks. Enough is enough!

    Thoughts?
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    Re: /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

    Postby CbbK » Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:49 am

    Actually the random generator works pretty fine, the chances to have
    Red / Blue / Red / Blue / Red / Blue
    Are the same as
    Red / Red / Red / Blue / Blue / Blue
    => chances to have red, followed by blue, followed by red, followed by blue, etc are the same as red followed by red, followed by red, etc. Which shows that it works just fine even in lesser series.

    Still, I'm ok to discuss this point, but I think that the first player should not be predictable.
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    Re: /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

    Postby SpenceKwon » Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:59 am

    just thinking outside the square a little.

    Inbed a Paper scissors rock --Jan Ken Pon :) mini flash game to decide who goes first

    Maybe make it a option aswell as keeping current system.

    Works in real life to decide most things lol
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    Re: /!\ Player who PLAYS FIRST: We need a change

    Postby reakq » Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:48 am

    The problem Cbbk is that you base your analysis on the long-term.

    In championships, players never play 1 000 000 matches against the others to get 50/50 about the balanced starts.
    In général, we played 2,3,6 matches maximum against a player. According to what you said previously, that's mean a player can do the whole step of a champ without starting even once. That's pretty unfair in my opinion.

    I would like to see a limit of that, just like Jack said :

    In CHAMPIONSHIPS only: 1st game random, each continued game after alternating who goes first


    That would be perfect !

    Also, players have different levels. I mean playing against .com is pretty hard, so when you never start against him, It's mostly impossible to get a single win. SO you fight for the draw and you hope to start next round...but when that never happens, you really can be disgusted.
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